Revelation: What Does it Really Mean?
Thoughts on a Tucker Carlson Podcast Interview with John Rich about his New Song
Due to the nature of being a pastor, occasionally I will have a sermon or a podcast episode or an article forwarded to me by people who know me. Usually, someone thought of me while they listened/read and thought I would enjoy it too. On the rare occasion, I will have someone forward me something and ask me to write about it. Even more rare is when I have multiple people send me the exact same thing asking me to type out my thoughts. In fact, it’s never happened. Until this week. Within five days, two gentlemen who live in different states and are connected to me in different ways forwarded me a podcast, requesting my evaluation.
The podcast is around 90 minutes. So when the first guy forwarded it to me I wasn’t real jazzed about it (sorry). I don’t usually listen to podcasts that lengthy. But when a second guy forwarded me the EXACT SAME thing, requesting the EXACT SAME thing, I leaned in closer. And when I read that this podcast has become one of the most popular podcast’s in America, I thought, “A lot of people are listening. This means some people I pastor are probably listening. Guess I better tune in (at least once).”
The podcast is Tucker Carlson’s. The episode forwarded to me was Carlson’s interview with John Rich about Rich’s new song “Revelation.” Prior to the interview, I had never listened to a podcast with Tucker Carlson, nor had I heard of John Rich. But after 90 minutes with them (some portions listened to twice), I now feel like we are childhood buddies.
Carlson interviews Rich about his song named after the final book in the Bible- Revelation. Their interesting and compelling conversation centered around Rich’s conviction concerning the end times and Jesus’s return. There are a lot of things in the conversation I appreciated and agreed with. Jesus is coming back; we should be and stay expectant and ready; persecution of Christians is a real thing that is happening now and will happen in the days to come; often, God uses crazy and ridiculous circumstances to accomplish His plan (God choosing the shepherd boy David to defeat the giant Goliath - an example Rich gave); the kingdom of heaven is often hidden behind a veil; etc. A decent portion of what was communicated in the interview I appreciated and agreed with.
However. . .
Several times I raised my eyebrows with a look of concern and curiosity. If you listen to the interview and/or listen to anyone talk about the end times (especially as it relates to the current political landscape of our nation), I offer a few thoughts for your consideration.
The Book of Revelation is NOT About Jesus’s Return
Within the first few minutes, John Rich declares to Tucker Carlson that the book of Revelation is about Jesus’s return. Sigh. Nowhere in the book do we read about Jesus coming back. It’s not there. This isn’t to say that discussions of Jesus’s return is not in the Bible. It is. Just not in Revelation. That said, the point of the book is not to cause us to fear His return. Rather, the point is to encourage believers to endure with Jesus. John writes to Asia Minor believers in the first century who were suffering for their faith. His aim is to explode their imaginations with the reality of Christ’s kingdom, urging them to stay strong, endure, and feverishly hope in the now-risen Lamb that was slain.
Trying to Predict Jesus’s Return is Futile
To be fair, Rich claimed that no one knows when Jesus will return. Agreed. But he did lead Carlson and his listeners to think the “Mark of the Beast” is probably cell phones, screens, and technology. He didn’t say so for certain. I’ll give him that. But he did lead us to think it. Here’s the thing: it may be. The “Mark of the Beast” may very well be the cell phone in my pocket. But every generation since John wrote down his biblical Revelation 2,000 years ago have assumed they knew what the mark was/is. Twenty centuries of predictions have proved futile and wrong.
That said, consider this: There are 404 verses in John’s Revelation. Of the verses, there are 518 (!) references to Old Testament passages. Why does this matter? Because John assumed his readers would know much of what he said because he assumed they knew their Old Testament. In other words, John didn’t pull crazy ideas out of the sky. The ideas he received from the Holy Spirit made sense because they were drenched in Old Testament realities. My point? We have to be careful not to divorce the images in Revelation from the allusions made from the Old Testament. (John wasn’t imagining an Apple iPhone, in other words.)
John Rich’s Posture Made Me a Bit Nervous
As I said, I don’t know John Rich. Never heard of him prior to the interview. All I know of him now is from the podcast and his song. So what I am about to convey is not totally fair. But listening, I got the sense he had all the answers and everyone else better figure out what he’s figured out. His posture and tone was a bit “me” versus “them.” He was certain that he was on the right side of things and everyone who didn’t get their act together and “prepare to die for Jesus” would perish. The older I get, people who are certain about everything (especially the things that the church has argued over for centuries) make me nervous.
Along these lines, there was a section in the interview where Carlson and Rich talked about the assassination attempt on Donald Trump. Though they never said it outright, the conversation led me to believe that they believed God spared Trump’s life in order for Trump to be the next President of the United States of America. Again, they didn’t say it verbatim. But they danced around it, leading their “dance partner” to believe it to be the case. God did spare Trump’s life. Yes. And Donald Trump may very well be the next President of our country. But it is very-very-very dangerous to assume we know God’s will and to make statements like that. Besides, what does Corey Comperatore’s family think about it? At the end of the day, we just don’t know. To claim otherwise, in my opinion, is dangerous and arrogant.
The Biggest Issue for Me was what WASN’T Discussed
As with most conversations about the end times, the rapture, and Jesus’s return - it’s not what is said that is the biggest issue for me. It’s what is NOT said. At the end of the day, I could probably get past the three issues mentioned above. But not this one. This blatant omission leaves me dumbfounded.
John Rich’s song is called “Revelation.” According to him, the song is the biblical book of Revelation put to rhyme and music. The entire interview (90 minutes!) is about the song, the 2nd coming of Jesus, persecution, the rapture, demonic influence, spiritual warfare, and being ready. Fine. But - PLEASE - for the love of God - if you are going to claim God gave you a song and the song He gave you is straight out of the book of Revelation - PLEASE - include the purpose of the book. The Apostle John wrote the book of Revelation, inspired by the Spirit of God, to exalt the Son of God who was, is, and is to come the Lamb who was Slain. The book is about Jesus - the Jesus who came, was slaughtered, died, and rose again victorious. Unless I missed it in the interview, the word “gospel” was mentioned only a couple of times and the contents of the gospel was mentioned in passing only once. Likewise, the Gospel of Jesus - the exaltation of the Lamb who was Slain (the point of Revelation!) - is not even a thought in Rich’s song.
If anyone is going to write a song about Revelation, maybe set to music one of the several songs already found in the book. This one would be good place to start. Oh yeah, there already is a song based on it! I waited and waited and waited for Carlson or Rich to mention the point of everything - but they never did. I wondered if the Gospel was even assumed.
Toward the end of the conversation, Carlson asks Rich how one can have the “mark of the beast” removed. Rich answers, “by being ready to die for Jesus.” (My words, not his. But it’s close enough.) NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! This puts all the pressure on us! This puts all the work on us! This line of thinking makes me think I have to work up enough courage to be ready to die for Jesus. It’s all about whether or not I have what it takes to endure.
Let’s make no mistake: the only way to be right with God and avoid being “marked” is by faith in the Lamb who was Slain. He is the One who did and does the work. The pressure has always been on Him and He has always come through. I hope I am ready to die for Jesus. I hope I would gladly do so if the moment presented itself. But let’s be clear: the only reason I would ever be willing to die for Jesus is because of what His death and resurrection did (and is doing) for my life and soul. By saying “being ready to die for Jesus” without ever mentioning the death and resurrection of Jesus is like telling me to be ready to die for a woman, completely ignorant of the fact that the woman is my mother. It’s a plea for grit without the context of grace and love. White knuckle grit and determination has never made anyone right with God. Receiving and swimming in the reality of the once slain and now conquering Lamb is the only way.
Refusing to emphasize the entire point of Revelation (and the Bible!) is incredibly dangerous. Ignoring the Way of Jesus in His submitting to death for the eternal good of others leads to all sorts of arrogant and un-Christ-like postures toward the world. Maybe it’s just me, but I didn’t get a humble, Christ-like love tone from the two men in the interview. And I think I know why: because the conversation was null and void of any mention of what I believe to be the defining feature of the Bible, Christianity, the church, my life, and the life that is to come: the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Last I checked, that is of utmost importance.
At the end of the day, my plea to fellow Christians is to pay attention to posture and purpose. Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The Way of Jesus is just as important as the Truth of Jesus. When one’s posture toward others is certainty over giving of one’s self for the good of another, be careful. And never forget, or assume, the Gospel. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus will be the content/purpose of our song forever in the age to come. Let’s let it saturate the very fiber of our being now in everything we say, do, and believe. That’s the Revelation I will always delight in.
(Three of the photos - Tucker Carlson, John Rich, and Donald Trump were all searched and found on Google Images.)